Curse

Reverend Dr · Mar 03, 2012, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Essence Snow

There are always going to be skills that are more powerfull than others. So inturn there are always going to be top tier skills....the one always noted as OP. If they all became equal....well then it would be far worse.

What?

While creating a system where every skill is roughly of the same power as every other would be damn near impossible, but to claim that balancing skills relative to each other is a bad idea is downright crazy.

Mouse at Large · Mar 03, 2012, 11:09 PM // 23:09

I may be missing things here, but I don't see multi-ele shockwave "spikers" dominating HA/Halls/GvG. Is the intention now to balance PvP based on RA???

Vodyara · Mar 03, 2012, 11:19 PM // 23:19

Okay, so balance needs to be based on the performance of 1% of the population who do HA/GvG, and the rest of us need to tolerate this Shockwave crap EVERY match?

I honestly don't care what goes on in HA and GvG, I just want to have fun playing the damn game. And with this Shockwave it's impossible.

Fitz Chivalry · Mar 04, 2012, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

I may be missing things here, but I don't see multi-ele shockwave "spikers" dominating HA/Halls/GvG. Is the intention now to balance PvP based on RA???

Halls = HA

Who the eff plays GvG any more any way, there's probably like 10 active teams playing, if that.

DiogoSilva · Mar 04, 2012, 12:29 AM // 00:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

I may be missing things here, but I don't see multi-ele shockwave "spikers" dominating HA/Halls/GvG. Is the intention now to balance PvP based on RA???

Most probably a nerf to shockwave will never happen, yes. They didn't do anything to Ray of Judgement and Wastrel's skills for Jade Quarry, so expect Random Arenas from nowadays til the end to be all about casuals spamming Shockwave.

I just got 9 straight wins at RA with 3 Shockwavers and one Dervish. Half of the teams we battled against had a monk, but we did lose against a good monk's team. Call anything you want, claim that all those monks we faced before sucked, but fact is, my team's wasn't very good neither, being more suicidal than they should without care. Not even I cared tried to play that great, and was just in for some mindless, light fun.

A team like this, mostly consisting of "average" skilled players (at best), would never beat 4-5 monk teams before, with the exception of the early days of the Dervish update (notice a trend here?).

A Shockwave bar is the easy win button of RA now, especially considering that 90% of the players aren't highly skilled, will easily ball and make some subtle mistakes, and ball even more so in the tight, small maps of RA, that mostly consist of bridges and the like.

If you're an "average at best" player, you'll win far more matches as a monk or as a Shockwaver, than with any other profession. It's the best to farm gladiator points or quest rewards there.

superraptors · Mar 04, 2012, 12:55 AM // 00:55

skill balancing would have been much better if they targeted/split it at certain arenas.

Relyk · Mar 04, 2012, 03:36 AM // 03:36

I find kiting to be a fun and effective tactic against shockwave eles when I use melee. Just remember to count 15 seconds.

xDusT II · Mar 06, 2012, 11:10 AM // 11:10

I think the earth ele template as a whole is more the problem than one skill in particular. It's the old problem of a bar being able to perform too well offensively and defensively. I think stone sheathe is more problematic than shockwave though, the weakness just gets everywhere -__-

it's good in theory to say you can kite these things or dodge projectile spells but in reality there are a potential three other threats on the other team to account for and three other people you need to clean/keep alive on your team. You can't kite stuff all the time, nor can your team (e.g. frontline, miedliners). Even if you could, it is a lot of pressure on a monk to have to constantly watch for and kite two projectile spells on top of their existing duties. It requires a disproportionate amount of attention for a monk to counter that pressure than it does an ele to apply it.

Some responses to some of the suggested counters:
1) removing weakness: Monk bars in RA are tight. A lot of them don't have self-condition removal, just draw. Your options usually fall to draw + mend touch or a target ally spot removal which will get outpaced by something like stonesheathe or even shockwave. If you have eles with stone sheathe, or multiple earth eles, the weakness goes up faster than you can remove it. Not to mention your rate of removal slows the more pressure you take.

2) Remove attunement: Its easy for the ele to slot aura of restoration + glowstone. You really need dual strips (corrupt ench + rip or something) or opportune interrupts.

3) Diversion + interrupts: these are universal counters to everything.

4) Kiting + spreading out + movement: in something like RA you can't really control the actions of your team. I've already addressed kiting above - you can't kite stuff all the time, and more importantly, neither can your team. Not to mention forcing someone to have to kite confers an advantage anyway. If I was running this bar, I would just unload on the squishy midliners anyway, or lineback 24/7 and drain the monks.
Further you can't always spread out e.g. if your war needs to lineback. It's a fiction to say AoE will never hit more than 1 person in pvp.
As for movement, as a monk you're constrained somewhat by your team, how far your frontline pushes up determines how far you need to push up to clean etc. Secondly, midliners are constrained depending on the position of the other team.

The biggest problem with the bar is when there are two of them. Sync teams with dual earth eles are such a pain because it pretty much nullifies you're frontline while doing pretty heavy damage. Two earth eles can eventually drain out a monk and can make a team last forever with weakness spam and stone sheathe and defensive kds. Also two five second recharge kd's with big damage is nasty if you get kd locked (the only time shockwave really becomes an issue). Two eles can sit on a midliner and outpace the monk's redbarring. If you want to fix the bar, up to recharge of stoning and find some way to limit the weakness spam + defence of stone sheathe.

DRGN · Mar 06, 2012, 02:51 PM // 14:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mouse at Large

I may be missing things here, but I don't see multi-ele shockwave "spikers" dominating HA/Halls/GvG. Is the intention now to balance PvP based on RA???

I think the problem lies with the template as a whole. Some people run Stone Sheath + Stoning spam instead of Shockwave because that's an also kind of a wtf skill. I dunno about you, but I see earth eles of some kind in almost every match I obs now, including [awsm]'s Stone Sheath ele in their mAT win.

Again, I think the issue is the whole build; each piece individually would be manageable, but put them together and they're a problem; snares, knockdowns, weakness and damage+defense or more damage+ more conditions conditions.

I also have to point out that Shockwave's defenders seem to make the following assumptions:

-Shockwave will never proc a 40/40. Counting the recharge on this is a lot different and and the downside is much more dangerous than trying to count to dshot/chop Woh or Bsurge.
-Shockwave is entirely reliant on enchantments
-Shockwave can't be cancel casted if you see people are running away and be saved for a better opportunity.
-The Shockwave user will always be stupid while the player is tactical mastermind
-The Stoning user will never move on closer; they will only cast at maximum cast range
-Shockwave users never have any defensive skills like Mirage Cloak equipped to deal with its problems.

Well, gee, it's hard to lose if you skew the argument like that. Also, let's consider this: even if we threw all that out, does having this same build on almost every team, sometimes 2-3 of 4 members, make for an enjoyable experience, or does it make it stale as a six month old loaf of bread?

All this is coming from the point of playing as the Shockwave ele, I should add. If having this much stuff on one bar is okay, can we please bring the BSurge mesmer back? That was much more fun.

There would be some difficulty handling it if it's being used a lot in higher end PvP AND there's no problem with it up there, but there's some possibilities.

Fitz Chivalry · Mar 06, 2012, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Relyk

I find kiting to be a fun and effective tactic against shockwave eles when I use melee. Just remember to count 15 seconds.

I find it to frenzy next to them while they're spamming weakness + knockdowns to be effective.

Way2dead · Mar 06, 2012, 04:07 PM // 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fitz Chivalry

Who the eff plays GvG any more any way, there's probably like 10 active teams playing, if that.

What the hell?........ 10, sure.......

Anyway on topic, sure you can kite from it as mid or backline, and still then it's not hard to ball in RA or HA. As frontline it can be even more annoying. hammers can't kite very good with flail, the weakness area is really big and with stoning spam you can't even use frenzy. just stand close and spam it, with 40/40 set too you will get high chances of rupting attack skills. To note that weakness alone can pretty much nullify a frontline's damage.

Coast · Mar 06, 2012, 04:42 PM // 16:42

lets wait another 5months till they change it, aka prenerf-postbuff dervs

Jeydra · Mar 06, 2012, 11:22 PM // 23:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by DRGN

I think the problem lies with the template as a whole. Some people run Stone Sheath + Stoning spam instead of Shockwave because that's an also kind of a wtf skill. I dunno about you, but I see earth eles of some kind in almost every match I obs now, including [awsm]'s Stone Sheath ele in their mAT win.

Why are you bringing up Stone Sheath in a Shockwave thread? If you want to argue that Stoning is overpowered, you may have a case, but not Shockwave.

Elsewise:

- You can hit someone else and wait till the Shockwave Ele runs up to a target to interrupt with DShot (or something like that).
- Almost all Ele templates are quite reliant on enchantments.
- Cancel casting Ele skills is not cheap. If you do that it's like casting without the Attunements up.
- There are very few good players using Shockwave because all the good players know it's not a good spell (unless in a fully synced team or something).
- You can move closer. It's just that the defender can keep repositioning while the Ele is repositioning.

You didn't mention stuff like anti-KDs > Stoning spam (Balanced Stance, Dolyak Signet, etc), Ebon Hawk + Stoning is a 2-spell combo that fails to work entirely if one of them is lost for whatever reason, and condition removal (Spotless Soul in particular) > Ebon Hawk.

I run into stance Monks every match in RA, all Hammer Warriors have 2 KDs and try to quarterknock, DShot + Savage Shot on every Ranger, etc. Doesn't it get stale? Shouldn't we nerf all of them?

DiogoSilva · Mar 06, 2012, 11:37 PM // 23:37

DShot won't work well if the ele has a block skill. You really need Magebane for a reliable counter on a Ranger, and if the block's skill is a dervish enchantment, the earth ele can use it to cover and counter most of the enchantment stripping skills.

Even if Shockwave isn't the best ele elite skill for high end PvP, considering its reliance on touch range and Stoning's reliance on being a projective with conditional KD, it is extremely strong in a format like Random Arenas. It's almost like an easy button for easy wins, and it is harder to avoid its area weakness + Stoning spam each 2.5/5s spam than it is to use it, by far.

The only counters for Shockwave require far more player skill than the usage of the elite itself, and thus, unless the players aren't high-end PvPers like the ones Jeydra describes, Shockwave dominates, and can and has been used in RA to win 3vs4 matches and monkless versus monk teams. For winning streaks in Random Arena, where the maps are small, and the newbs and the average players are aplenty to kill with, it's the strongest skill in the entire format.

It was already a popular choice before the update within the newb-users, now its the easy win button against all but the highest skilled PvP players.

DRGN · Mar 07, 2012, 12:30 AM // 00:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Why are you bringing up Stone Sheath in a Shockwave thread? If you want to argue that Stoning is overpowered, you may have a case, but not Shockwave.

Elsewise:

- You can hit someone else and wait till the Shockwave Ele runs up to a target to interrupt with DShot (or something like that).
- Almost all Ele templates are quite reliant on enchantments.
- Cancel casting Ele skills is not cheap. If you do that it's like casting without the Attunements up.
- There are very few good players using Shockwave because all the good players know it's not a good spell (unless in a fully synced team or something).
- You can move closer. It's just that the defender can keep repositioning while the Ele is repositioning.

You didn't mention stuff like anti-KDs > Stoning spam (Balanced Stance, Dolyak Signet, etc), Ebon Hawk + Stoning is a 2-spell combo that fails to work entirely if one of them is lost for whatever reason, and condition removal (Spotless Soul in particular) > Ebon Hawk.

I run into stance Monks every match in RA, all Hammer Warriors have 2 KDs and try to quarterknock, DShot + Savage Shot on every Ranger, etc. Doesn't it get stale? Shouldn't we nerf all of them?

So much for "I'm done" lol

Because I'm trying to address it on the context of the entire bar, as I said, even if it is a bit of a derailment. Having a debate spread across different threads for Shockwave/Stoning/Stone Sheath would be a real charlie foxtrot, no?

Balanced Stance is nice for the 50% of the time it's up, and unless you intend to run Balanced Stance AND Dolyak Signet, you're vulnerable for the other half.

Shockwave applies Weakness as well, so Stoning is not entirely reliant on Ebon Hawk.

Attunements are important, but losing your Attunement is hardly a complete answer.

Sometimes one cancel cast is all it takes. Wasting a measly 10 energy to draw out a Dshot is well worth it; you don't really even need to with some kind of block skill.

I didn't mention things like Draw or Spotless Soul because A)I hardly ever see Spotless anymore and B)neither of them help you if you're the monk getting targeted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I run into stance Monks every match in RA, all Hammer Warriors have 2 KDs and try to quarterknock, DShot + Savage Shot on every Ranger, etc. Doesn't it get stale? Shouldn't we nerf all of them?

I suppose I didn't articulate this point well enough.

There's a lot of versatility in those bars. Hammer warriors vary from Forceful Blow to Dev Hammer to Magehunter's; Earth Shaker and Backbreaker get "used". Rangers have a whole plethora of elites to choose from; the problem of bow Rangers being shoehorned into having a very predictable skill bar is a design problem that has persisted for years and years. Monks have been forced into Warrior stances(for the most part) because the secondary prof skills Monks used to carry(Inspiration, Shadow Arts) were nerfed, and Eremite's Zeal/Channeling obviously don't suit themselves to a 4v4 environment. Also, all those aforementioned builds take skill to use properly, or at least significantly more than this. It's also not particularly difficult to deal with some of the aforementioned counters if you apply some skill of your own when playing it.

tl;dr version: DiogoSilva's post

Azazello · Mar 07, 2012, 01:41 AM // 01:41

Stone sheath is pretty strong. Shockwave, not so much.

Seraphim of Chaos · Mar 19, 2012, 06:29 AM // 06:29

Stone Sheath blows this shit out of the water.

Lucas13 · Mar 19, 2012, 08:11 PM // 20:11

Just run mes and PB these noobs. Most of them can't even fake their skillz.

or play prot monk.

JanRegal · Mar 20, 2012, 01:04 AM // 01:04

Just came back recetnyl - the huge amount of Shockwave eles is already putting me off this once fine game. Curse you PvX builds!

SkyShadow44 · Apr 08, 2012, 07:00 AM // 07:00

I agree that Shockwave needs a nerf severely.

What kind of skill does 151+ damage on average AND inflicts 3 different conditions?

Also, use a Sin and get down to around 1/2 health and see if it doesn't 1-hit you.

Might as well add a Tactical Nuke to the PvP in this game for JQ and FA so when you get 10 kills in a row you can just end the game. xD